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Post by Goldenfleeced on Nov 14, 2014 4:05:54 GMT
I wanted to raise this subject at this time, because as I was contemplating the 'Voynich message' concerning the 'glider,' and wondering what exactly that was, I had a sudden, and certain, kind of 'epiphany' in regard to 'gliders,' and 'ladders,' and 'winged ones,' that I would like to share with you here... for better or worse. Personally, I tend to believe that I'm on the right track with this one, and if so, it kind of 'opens the door' to a place that we all know is there... We just don't want to go there. Remember the story of Jacob's Ladder? He 'dreamed' that he saw a ladder, with 'angels' ascending and descending... going up and down. In response, Genesis 28:17 tells us, "And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven." It is supposed to be a real place, with real 'creatures' climbing up and down these ladders... and we can further suppose that the 'dream' that Jacob had was a 'vision,'- of another place, maybe... maybe even something like this...  Do you see the ladders? There used to be more, of course... and the doorways are often T-shaped... like these...   Now, these dwellings were constructed hundreds of feet in the air... but, why? Defense? It does not seem that many 'weapons of war' have been found among the artifacts, if so... in other words, 'defense' doesn't seem to have been a high priority for them.   In addition to the main buildings, smaller 'granaries' were built into the face of the cliffs... seemingly inaccessible to 'normal' people, if you see what I mean, but who could get into these little 'stash spots?' From the looks of it, only somebody who could 'fly'... Or 'glide,' maybe... Now, about the term 'Anasazi'... there was no tribe by that name; it is actually a Navajo word that means, interestingly, 'Ancient ones,' or more accurately, 'Ancient enemy.' How do you like that? I wonder whose enemy they were? They seem to have taught the local indigenous people how to build and farm, and gave them a certain form of astronomy, shown at sites such as Chaco Canyon with its 'Sun Dagger,' and this petroglyph that shows the Supernova event of 1054...  The first Great House known to evince fastidious proportioning and alignment was Casa Rinconada: the twinned "T"-shaped portals of its 10 m (33 ft)-radius great kiva were north-south collinear, and axes joining opposing windows passed within 10 cm (4 in) of its center.[73] The Great Houses of Pueblo Bonito and Chetro Ketl were found by the "Solstice Project" and the U.S. National Geodetic Survey to be sited along a precisely east-west line, an axis that captures the passage of the equinox sun. The lines perpendicularly bisecting their principal walls are aligned north-south, implying a possible intent to mirror the equinox midday. Pueblo Alto and Tsin Kletsin are also north-south aligned. These two axes form an inverted cross when viewed from above; its northbound reach is extended another 35 mi (56 km) past Pueblo Alto by the ramrod-straight "Great North Road", a pilgrimage route which modern-day Pueblo Indians believe to be an allusion to myths surrounding their arrival from the distant north.
Two shared-latitude but diametrically opposed complexes located some 15 mi (24 km) from the core buildings of the central canyon, Pueblo Pintado and Kin Bineola, each lie on a path from the central canyon that is collinear with the passage and setting of the full mid-winter "minimum moon", which recurs every 18.6 years.
Two other complexes less distant from Pueblo Bonito, Una Vida and Peñasco Blanco, share an axis collinear with the passage of the full "maximum moon". The terms "minimum" and "maximum" refer to the azimuthal extreme points in the lunar excursion cycle, or the swings in direction relative to true north that the setting full moon exhibits. It takes roughly 9.25 years for the rising or setting full moon nearest to winter solstice to proceed from its maximum azimuthal north, or "maximum extremum", to its southernmost azimuth, known as "minimum extremum".
Reasons for the alignments have been offered:
As these people would view the heavens [...] there was an order of things up there. What you had here [...] contrasted to that. Some years it was too dry, too hot [...] too windy, too cold. If there was a way to transfer the orderly nature of the cosmos down onto what seems to be chaos that exists here, then you begin to then integrate at this place both heaven and earth. And this would be [...] the center place.
—Phillip Tuwaletstiwa, U.S. National Geodetic Survey, The Mystery of Chaco Canyon.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaco_Culture_National_Historical_ParkEventually, it is said that they just 'disappeared'... went back to where they came from, but why? A 1997 excavation at Cowboy Wash near Dolores, Colorado, found remains of at least twenty-four human skeletons that showed evidence of violence and dismemberment, with strong indications of cannibalism. This modest community appears to have been abandoned during the same time period.[23] Other excavations within the Ancient Pueblo culture area produce varying numbers of unburied, and in some cases dismembered, bodies. In a 2010 paper, Potter and Chuipka argued that evidence at Sacred Ridge Site, near Durango, Colorado, is best interpreted as ethnic cleansing.[25]
This evidence of warfare, conflict, and cannibalism is hotly debated by some scholars and interest groups. Suggested alternatives include: a community under the pressure of starvation or extreme social stress, dismemberment and cannibalism as religious ritual or in response to religious conflict, the influx of outsiders seeking to drive out a settled agricultural community via calculated atrocity, or an invasion of a settled region by nomadic raiders who practiced cannibalism; such peoples have existed in other times and places, e.g. the Androphagi of Europe.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Pueblo_peoplesInteresting, don't you think? Something more to contemplate... 
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Post by Goldenfleeced on Nov 14, 2014 6:49:55 GMT
I'd like to add this piece for thought, as well... Evidence suggests a profound change in religion in this period. Chacoan and other structures constructed originally along astronomical alignments, and thought to have served important ceremonial purposes to the culture, were systematically dismantled. Doorways were sealed with rock and mortar. Kiva walls show marks from great fires set within them, which probably required removal of the massive roof - a task which would require significant effort. Habitations were abandoned, tribes split and divided and resettled far elsewhere.
This evidence suggests that the religious structures were deliberately abandoned slowly over time. Puebloan tradition holds that the ancestors had achieved great spiritual power and control over natural forces, and used their power in ways that caused nature to change, and caused changes that were never meant to occur. Possibly, the dismantling of their religious structures was an effort to symbolically undo the changes they believed they caused due to their abuse of their spiritual power, and thus make amends with nature.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Pueblo_peoplesNow, that reminds me of something else... Hmmmmmm... |
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Post by Goldenfleeced on Nov 14, 2014 7:19:14 GMT
Now, it occurred to me that the word 'Anasazi' sounds a lot like... Annunaki... don't you think? And its definition of 'Ancient enemy' seems more than coincidental, under the circumstances. I have theorized (given the architecture of the dwellings, and their height, atop cliffs) that these 'creatures' were 'fliers,' or... perhaps 'gliders' would be more appropriate, after all, since we have for example other 'flying' mammals, such as the 'flying' squirrel, which is really a 'glider,' and not technically a 'flier,' in the same way that a bird would be. Remember that birds are descended from reptiles... and therefore, any humanoid 'flyer' would not be as much bird-like, as bat-like... or squirrel-like. Remember Rocket J. Squirrel...? Oh, yeah...  Complete here with his 'sidekick,' Bullwinkle Moose... who is making his usual 'successful' attempt at Magick... "This time for sure..." Lolol... Art imitates Life... isn't that what they say? Oh, deer... |
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Post by Goldenfleeced on Nov 14, 2014 8:03:18 GMT
And, believe it or not, I've been to these cliff dwellings... near Oak Creek Canyon. There is a site near them called, "Montezuma's Well," which is interesting, considering my 'theory'... Montezuma Well is located 11 miles from Montezuma Castle north... The water of Montezuma Well enters from two underground springs. Over one and a half million gallons of water a day flow into the well. It's a real Oasis! When visiting Arizona you must see this secret place. It is not a well, but a sink hole. The pond is fed by a underground water cavern, then the water exits through another cavern, then to an existing Sinagua Indian irrigation canal.The 'underground' aspect of this water cavern means that someone might have followed this 'river' from its source underground, to its exit point near Oak Creek Canyon, where they erected shelters in the cliffsides, such as they might have enjoyed in their underground environs. After a time, it was decided that life above-ground was no longer desirable, for whatever reason, and 'they' went back to wherever it is/was that they came from, evidently... Which isn't to say that they might not come back... some time... The 'crystal skulls' prophecy seems to say that they will... well, the 'elders,' anyway, and these are the 'ancient ones,' aren't they? They are... and the ceremonies were conducted, here at this place... It just kind of makes you wonder why... |
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Post by Goldenfleeced on Nov 14, 2014 8:24:00 GMT
And, believe it or not, I've been to these cliff dwellings... near Oak Creek Canyon. There is a site near them called, "Montezuma's Well," which is interesting, considering my 'theory'... Montezuma Well is located 11 miles from Montezuma Castle north... The water of Montezuma Well enters from two underground springs. Over one and a half million gallons of water a day flow into the well. It's a real Oasis! When visiting Arizona you must see this secret place. It is not a well, but a sink hole. The pond is fed by a underground water cavern, then the water exits through another cavern, then to an existing Sinagua Indian irrigation canal.The 'underground' aspect of this water cavern means that someone might have followed this 'river' from its source underground, to its exit point near Oak Creek Canyon, where they erected shelters in the cliffsides, such as they might have enjoyed in their underground environs. After a time, it was decided that life above-ground was no longer desirable, for whatever reason, and 'they' went back to wherever it is/was that they came from, evidently... Which isn't to say that they might not come back... some time... The 'crystal skulls' prophecy seems to say that they will... well, the 'elders,' anyway, and these are the 'ancient ones,' aren't they? They are... and the ceremonies were conducted, here at this place... It just kind of makes you wonder why... I just found this... The Yavapai people consider the Well a deeply sacred site, as they believe it is the place through which they emerged into the world.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montezuma_WellThe water here has a high concentration of arsenic, evidently... Imagine. Poison... |
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Post by Goldenfleeced on Nov 14, 2014 8:57:18 GMT
Now, let's see if we can find our 'source' here... and connect it with our Sibylline Oracle... Nothing up my sleeve... lol... Montezuma Well (Yavapai: ʼHakthkyayva or Ahagaskiaywa)... is a natural limestone sinkhole near the town of Rimrock, Arizona through which some 1,500,000 US gallons (5,700,000 L) of water emerge each day from an underground spring. It is located about 11 miles (18 km) northeast of Montezuma Castle.
The Well measures 386 feet (118 m) in diameter from rim to rim and contains a near-constant volume of spring water even in times of severe drought, amounting to approximately 15,000,000 US gallons (57,000,000 L). The water is highly carbonated and contains high levels of arsenic...
Montezuma Well's steady outflow has been used for irrigation since the 8th century. Part of a prehistoric canal is preserved near the park's picnic ground, and portions of the canal's original route are still in use today...
Montezuma Well is geologically very similar to the sinkholes and cenotes found in Florida and the Yucatan peninsula of Mexico - that is, a limestone cave that has collapsed to expose its subterranean water source. The Well sits at the northern end of what is called the Verde Limestone formation, a distinct layer of travertine limestone - more than 2,000 feet (610 m) thick in some places - deposited beneath a series of shallow lakes that covered Arizona's central Verde Valley region between eight and two million years ago...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montezuma_WellSo, in other words, the 'springs' are 'perennial'... wouldn't you say? 210 Ah! miserable mortals, change these things,
Nor lead the mighty God to wrath extreme;
Put giving up your swords and pointed knives,
And homicides and wanton violence,
Wash your whole body in perennial streams,
215 And lifting up your hands to heaven seek pardon
For former deeds and expiate with praise
Bitter impiety; and God will give
Repentance; he will not destroy; and wrath
Will he again restrain, if in your hearts
220 Ye all will practice honored piety.
But if, ill-disposed, ye obey me not,
But with a fondness for strange lack of sense
Receive all these things with an evil ear,
There shall be over all the world a fire
225 And greatest omen with sword and with trump
At sunrise; the whole world shall hear the roar
And mighty sound. And he shall burn all earth,
And destroy the whole race of men, and all
The cities and the rivers and the sea;
230 All things he'll burn, and it shall be black dust.
But when now all things shall have been reduced
To dust and ashes, and God shall have calmed
The fire unspeakable which he lit up,
The bones and ashes of men God himself
235 Again will fashion, and he will again
Raise mortals up, even as they were before.
And then shall be the judgment, at which God
Himself as judge shall judge the world again;
And all who sinned with impious hearts, even them,
240 Shall he again hide under mounds of earth
[Dark Tartarus and Stygian Gehenna].
But all who shall be pious shall again
Live on the earth [and (shall inherit there)
The great immortal God's unwasting bliss,]
245 God giving spirit life and joy to them
[The pious; and they all shall see themselves
Beholding the sun's sweet and cheering light.
O happy on the earth shall be that man]. |
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Post by Zimmer101 on Nov 18, 2014 21:05:03 GMT
This whole subject of the origins and history of southwest native people is near and dear to my heart! I've given a lot of time to thinking of this mystery (not so much actual research though).
I have a bit of connection to this story, as my mothers side of my family comes from modern day Taos New Mexico. Not exactly the area being discussed here, but they share a lot of familiar stories and traditions. I myself am not very well versed in the old stories and legends seeing as I've lived in Canada my whole life.
I'll make more posts once I have time to give this topic a serious mulling over, but for now I'll share what thoughts come to mind.
I like your theories about these "beings" having the ability to glide or fly, I wonder if there's any actual descriptions anywhere of their appearance? Many south western traditions seem to avoid talking about the different creatures they've had contact with in great detail. I can't speak for all pueblo people, as I don't know much. But for the pueblo people near the area of northern New Mexico I can say this much:
I've heard accounts of two different types of 'creatures' that have had contact with the humans of that area. I don't know how/if they relate to each other, maybe they do (I don't have enough of the traditional knowledge in my head to know such things). The first type I've heard of comes from a particular story about a place called "Blue Lake", it's the site of some of the more important ceremonies that are conducted during the summer. In the story that was related to me, (I'm condensing this heavily since its a long story) during one of these ceremonies, a being made itself known to the group (supposedly coming from underground) and informed them that it required one of the group to accompany it to "it's world". More specifically a young boy. The boy went peacefully with the creature to the middle of the lake (supposedly either it drained temporarily, or there was some mechanism that allowed the two to travel over the water). The boy and the underground being then descended below the lake, and the waters returned.
As I said, I'm condensing this story a lot. Maybe I'm forgetting some things, but the point is that this 'blue lake' must have some kind of an entrance to an underground world. Perhaps kept secret by some doorway hidden under the water (which can only be opened by the creatures).
I have no clue when this was supposed to have occurred, It had to have been at least in the past 200-300 years judging by the fact that it was still remembered. I don't think this particular story ever made it to "western ears", definitely no books contain this tidbit. It was told to me in a very matter-of-fact way. I cant say I blame the people of that area for not wanting this to be widely known, people of this day and age don't take to kindly to the idea of "sacrificing" human beings to some underground creatures. I would think me posting this story anywhere on the internet would be seen as highly disrespectful considering my connection. But I seek truth, and I don't think such a thing can be approached unless all people are open about what they've seen or experienced.
Another instance of "contact" that the Taos people have in their oral history is a story of beings coming down from the sky to teach things like songs, ceremony, and other traditional knowledge. The story is that there was a time in the pueblo peoples past when they were in a state of disarray (forgetting ancient teachings, becoming disconnected from "spirit", messing things up, etc..), at that time, these beings descended from the sky to "re-teach" the people the ways they had lost. The description I was given of these beings was that they looked a lot like us. Just people, from the sky. I wish I could remember more about this particular event, but as with the last story, this related to me as a historical event that didn't take place that long ago (certainly not an "ancient" legend).
The pueblo people of that region also have the idea that they originally came from underground to live on the surface.
As I said, once I get some time to really sink my teeth into this I'll maybe make more posts. I have a lot of theories that relate to the connections these underground places have to the legends of Shambhala/Agartha, the supposed underground vaults full of ancient knowledge, reptilians, etc..
Some other time perhaps!
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Post by Goldenfleeced on Nov 22, 2014 3:58:14 GMT
Wow... that was an excellent contribution to the forum, if I don't say so myself... I really do appreciate your insights into the 'traditional' knowledge, since that is mostly all we have now to rely on; and less of that, as 'traditional knowledge' is sold cheaply for the 'magic beans' of modern science. A wonderful thing, don't you think...?  Now, the 'lake' connects us to our 'water door,' and probably even the 'Water Gate' of Solomon's Temple; so many traditions are connected with the water, and specifically the sea, as the location of at least a 'gateway' to these 'people.' I have my own theories as to the identity of at least some of these people, and they may not be the only ones to inhabit these spaces, but they are certainly some of the most 'provable,' as far as 'histories' go... There is also the 'Lady of the Lake,' who is the 'holder' of the sword, Excalibur, which will be claimed by our 'once and future king,' yes...? Yes, even 'gliders,' perhaps, that are adapted to the high cliffs of the underground world, much as bats... or even, flying squirrels. Nature is a wonderful thing, really... and its laws are certainly allowing of wonderful things. For your consideration, I would like to submit this particular video by Pink Floyd, titled "Learning to Fly." Notice that it is an Indian-looking boy that is doing the 'visioning,' with a definite 'native' connection, and cliffs... and there is certainly a point to that, and no coincidence... and I'm not sure if you are one of them, but some people are born with an urge, to fly... to run, and jump... and not look back, or down... I'm one of them, and so was my father; I know that some day, I will fly... that Nature has provided for the possibility, and that I will find a way to the sky. I know it... Peace to you... and I will try to make additional comments to your very thoughtful post; I appreciate your contribution. Enjoy... |
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Post by Goldenfleeced on Nov 22, 2014 4:14:22 GMT
This whole subject of the origins and history of southwest native people is near and dear to my heart! I've given a lot of time to thinking of this mystery (not so much actual research though). I have a bit of connection to this story, as my mothers side of my family comes from modern day Taos New Mexico. Not exactly the area being discussed here, but they share a lot of familiar stories and traditions. I myself am not very well versed in the old stories and legends seeing as I've lived in Canada my whole life. I'll make more posts once I have time to give this topic a serious mulling over, but for now I'll share what thoughts come to mind. I like your theories about these "beings" having the ability to glide or fly, I wonder if there's any actual descriptions anywhere of their appearance? Many south western traditions seem to avoid talking about the different creatures they've had contact with in great detail. I can't speak for all pueblo people, as I don't know much. But for the pueblo people near the area of northern New Mexico I can say this much: I've heard accounts of two different types of 'creatures' that have had contact with the humans of that area. I don't know how/if they relate to each other, maybe they do (I don't have enough of the traditional knowledge in my head to know such things). The first type I've heard of comes from a particular story about a place called "Blue Lake", it's the site of some of the more important ceremonies that are conducted during the summer. In the story that was related to me, (I'm condensing this heavily since its a long story) during one of these ceremonies, a being made itself known to the group (supposedly coming from underground) and informed them that it required one of the group to accompany it to "it's world". More specifically a young boy. The boy went peacefully with the creature to the middle of the lake (supposedly either it drained temporarily, or there was some mechanism that allowed the two to travel over the water). The boy and the underground being then descended below the lake, and the waters returned. As I said, I'm condensing this story a lot. Maybe I'm forgetting some things, but the point is that this 'blue lake' must have some kind of an entrance to an underground world. Perhaps kept secret by some doorway hidden under the water (which can only be opened by the creatures). I have no clue when this was supposed to have occurred, It had to have been at least in the past 200-300 years judging by the fact that it was still remembered. I don't think this particular story ever made it to "western ears", definitely no books contain this tidbit. It was told to me in a very matter-of-fact way. I cant say I blame the people of that area for not wanting this to be widely known, people of this day and age don't take to kindly to the idea of "sacrificing" human beings to some underground creatures. I would think me posting this story anywhere on the internet would be seen as highly disrespectful considering my connection. But I seek truth, and I don't think such a thing can be approached unless all people are open about what they've seen or experienced. Another instance of "contact" that the Taos people have in their oral history is a story of beings coming down from the sky to teach things like songs, ceremony, and other traditional knowledge. The story is that there was a time in the pueblo peoples past when they were in a state of disarray (forgetting ancient teachings, becoming disconnected from "spirit", messing things up, etc..), at that time, these beings descended from the sky to "re-teach" the people the ways they had lost. The description I was given of these beings was that they looked a lot like us. Just people, from the sky. I wish I could remember more about this particular event, but as with the last story, this related to me as a historical event that didn't take place that long ago (certainly not an "ancient" legend). The pueblo people of that region also have the idea that they originally came from underground to live on the surface. As I said, once I get some time to really sink my teeth into this I'll maybe make more posts. I have a lot of theories that relate to the connections these underground places have to the legends of Shambhala/Agartha, the supposed underground vaults full of ancient knowledge, reptilians, etc.. Some other time perhaps! Let me add this now... as far as the 'human sacrifice' element of the stories, I was just watching the story of two brothers that are trying to trace the 'giant' skeletons that were found here in this country, in somewhat great numbers (considering) in the last century, mostly. The remains have 'disappeared,' not surprisingly, but they have found what they believe is a burial site, which is magnetically charged, and underground... the magnetic disturbance, evidently, has something to do with the prospect of a 'resurrection' process, I'm sure, and the cave... well... they sent them back where they came from, if you ask me. And, they brought in... sand... to bury them in. Sand. From the sea... At any rate, these giants were, in all likelihood, cannibalistic in nature, and hence the human 'sacrifices,' as well as tales of vampires and man-eating werewolves, etc... which weren't all false, evidently... just well masked. As usual... Which is why caves are traditionally associated with things 'coming up' and are considered everywhere to be 'sacred' places... even in 'prehistoric' times... if not somewhat foreboding... Something came up from the caves... And something is coming again. I think you can count on that, at least... |
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Post by Goldenfleeced on Nov 23, 2014 3:50:49 GMT
Now, let me just add an interesting 'flying myth' of my own... in support of my expectations, you might say... you see, they say it's been done... Esclarmonde is said, in at least one story, to have assumed the form of a dove in order to carry the Holy Grail away from those who had persecuted the Cathars. According to German medievalist Otto Rahn, shepherds from Montségur claimed that "a white dove escaped and flew over the walled crest" and he believed that this dove was Esclarmonde de Foix.[4] This literary folklore - which is documentable only as far back as its first mention by Rahn - has been used as the modern basis for revering Esclarmonde de Foix as a saint in several contemporary Gnostic churches.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esclarmonde_of_FoixDear brother Otto... he believed, too... Esclarmonde de Foix, or... the Fox of Foix... how do you like that? What does 'the fox' say...? She says, "Time to fly..."  |
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Post by Goldenfleeced on Nov 23, 2014 3:54:46 GMT
 Compare with the image of 'Esclarmonde,' above... |
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Post by Goldenfleeced on Nov 23, 2014 4:12:54 GMT
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Post by Goldenfleeced on Nov 23, 2014 4:26:42 GMT
Now, this may seem like an odd place to tie this in, but it seems like a 'natural' at this point...
The Germans looked for a relic known as 'the Spear of Longinus,' or 'the Spear of Destiny.' It is a symbol... of power, evidently... since Power is what they were seeking, for whatever motives they might have had in mind; they are also tied to the 'lost ark' as 'raiders' of such an item. With that in mind, and their quest for 'power' over both the physical and the spiritual realms, why do you suppose that they would seek such 'religious' items?
Why did the Philistines return the ark to the Jews...? Why would Pharoah's daughter refuse to live in the same compound with such an item...?
Why, indeed...?
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Post by Goldenfleeced on Nov 23, 2014 5:31:23 GMT
Oh, yes... let me show you something... This is the 'flying fox'... a bat, really... a glider...    Everything's upside-down... Can I get a witness...? Lolol... |
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